Berkeleyside - Latest Comments

Re: How much is democracy worth in Berkeley?

Bruce Love — Wed, 16 May 2012 18:39:17 -0000

Please point to the section in the ordinance where the Parliamentarian is given the power to do this.

The short answer is that it is right there in the same passage that has now been cited a whole bunch of times. As you know. The Parliamentarian is obliged to announce the substance of alerts received. To announce the substance of a complaint does not mean to recite the complaint individually, apart from other similar complaints.

Now separately you say that you have this concern:

You also keep ignoring the potential situation where a dogged individual or group presents objections in sequence

For such an "attack" on a council meeting to happen, either council must be conducting itself in a way that merits such a large number of complaints or -- in what I think you are imagining -- the "dogged individual or group" must be persisting in making complaints of no merit at all, apparently for the purpose of disrupting the meeting. If a long series of complaints each has merit then, of course, they should be made! And if, as you seem to fear, a hooligan attempts to abuse the process by making a long serious of complaints with no merit at all, then they are disrupting a public meeting and can be removed.

In either event, you are now arguing far away from your initial claim that individuals could filibuster a meeting.... your objections keep slipping around because, well, there isn't much valid to them.

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

bobby1122 — Wed, 16 May 2012 18:36:39 -0000

Some time you just need bats and guns for neighborhood cleanup.

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

bobby1122 — Wed, 16 May 2012 18:34:41 -0000

Roberto Alcala to Berk. council and cops " WTF, we been here for 30 years, your stinking badjes mean nothing."

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

The Sharkey — Wed, 16 May 2012 18:15:29 -0000

Occupy Berkeley Council Meeting = shut down any discussion on any issue

Perhaps that's why Bruce supports it, though. He always seems to be an outspoken champion of Occupy groups.

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

bgal4 — Wed, 16 May 2012 18:09:46 -0000

hella funny and hecka true!

Re: Unfunded liabilities prompt initiative, Council resolution

Bill — Wed, 16 May 2012 18:09:11 -0000

One way to get the attention to this need fairly quickly would be to vote down any June or November bond and or fee changes/increases until we fully understand the city's situation. As state before, the elephant in the room are the pension benefits for ALL city employees and I say this as a full supporter of defined benefit plans. That said, all unfunded liabilities should be clearly defined as direct bond and pension financial liabilities of the city not some made up feel good measurement. Finally, the world doesn't end if the report isn't good. What it means is that action has to be taken to gradually bring the liabilities down to a sustainable level over time.

Re: How much is democracy worth in Berkeley?

The Sharkey — Wed, 16 May 2012 18:08:29 -0000

The Parliamentarian is obliged to announce the substance of an alert. 100 concurrent alerts, all of the same substance, can be described this way: "There are 100 alerts about X."

Please point to the section in the ordinance where the Parliamentarian is given the power to do this. I've asked you repeatedly to show me what part of the ordinance you think says this, but you keep dodging the question. You also keep ignoring the potential situation where a dogged individual or group presents objections in sequence rather than concurrently despite the fact that abusing the ordinance that way has a much greater chance of disrupting a meeting.

Saying that "common sense readings don't cut it in Berkeley" isn't hate speech or an insult. It's a neutral observation. People in our fair city are very, very particular about the language of ordinances and ballot issues - you yourself are one of those people. If something in an initiative isn't completely explicit, it's open for litigation and abuse.

Again, can you back up what you are saying with specific citations from the ordinance, or are you just making a bunch of unsubstantiated proclamations?

For someone who likes to chastise others for not being civil enough for your high standards, you sure are laying on the trollish nastiness pretty thick.

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

Heather_W_62 — Wed, 16 May 2012 18:04:48 -0000

Thomas, I'm not a f**king sheep following some anonymous leader. I read the ordinance myself. I've also lived in this City for nearly 50 years and have far more than the average share of watching people with whackadoodle ideas and pressuring City Govt to listen to them. All they need is a loophole that lets them shut it down with a paltry 100 or 50 signatures, what have you... Runningwolf, for instance... that guy is a Supreme Nut job and he's not stupid. It wouldn't take much for he and his followers to use parts of this Ordinance to virtually shut council meetings down. Heck, all they'd have to do is show up in such numbers that the Council hall couldn't contain the attendance. And no, your ideas about speakers etcetera in the hallways wouldn't work because it's not part of the mandate of the ordinance.

Anyway. I read it, drew my own conclusions and feel that it has some very good points, but it bogs itself down with unrealistic demands.

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

Berkeleylongtimer — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:52:36 -0000

The headline tells us all we want to know about the wheels of justice in Berkeley----"Crackdown"---hey---it's been an issue for 30 years folks!!! What kind of a crackdown is it that takes 30 years?!

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

bgal4 — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:49:39 -0000

I do not have a dog in this fight one way or another. I am not knowledgeable of specifics yet. I do agree that in Berkeley citizen advocates have a tendency to try and control for any potential city obstructions and correct for past transgressions rather than design enforceable policy based on good governance principles.

I am not sure regaining the public trust and building a culture of mutual respect is possible in Berkeley, there is such a one party rule and a history of group type advocacy. This is not a community that encourages developing its own social capital or participatory democracy.

Re: How much is democracy worth in Berkeley?

Bruce Love — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:46:01 -0000

There is no clause in the proposed initiative allowing the Parliamentarian to lump objections together.

The Parliamentarian is obliged to announce the substance of an alert. 100 concurrent alerts, all of the same substance, can be described this way: "There are 100 alerts about X."

"Common sense" readings don't cut it here in Berkeley.

Very funny. False. Ignorant. But HAHA....Sharkey expresses hate towards lots of people! HA HA! Very witty. I guess it's at least reflective of the kind of BS opponents are spreading.

Re: How much is democracy worth in Berkeley?

The Sharkey — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:24:36 -0000

In one case they are all on roughly the same point in which case they can be received and announced en masse.

No. This is false.

There is no clause in the proposed initiative allowing the Parliamentarian to lump objections together.

You are also conveniently ignoring the potential for "concerned citizens" to submit bogus forms about an item one after another while the item is being discussed, which (according to the way ordinance appears to be written) would mean that they would have to be addressed immediately. Enough "brief interruptions" can shut down a discussion.

"Common sense" readings don't cut it here in Berkeley. If something isn't explicitly written into the ordinance or initiative there will be lawsuits and the loopholes will be abused. See the recent, counter-productive, blocking of new libraries (which you supported) as an example.

Re: Shop Talk: The ins and outs of Berkeley businesses

TN — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:24:14 -0000

It has been years and years since I ate at Vegi Food but I still remember the walnut prawns. Vegi Food in Berkeley was actually the off shoot of the restaurant of the same name located on Clement Street in San Francisco's Richmond district. Having at the time eaten at both, I thought the food at the Clement Street location was much better though they used the same recipes.

Google tells us that Vegi Food in San Francisco still exists at its original location. When I used to eat there, there was always a line out the door.

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

Bruce Love — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:21:51 -0000

Heather, I don't think you are correct that this ordinance would allow random whackadoodle shut-downs of council operations. I think that is a (false) bug put in your ear by some opponents. Why do you think it's true? Is it 1.130.160F that's making you think that?

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

The Sharkey — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:16:53 -0000

We need *a* Sunshine Ordinance.
We do not need *this* Sunshine Ordinance.
The way it is currently written makes it far too ripe for abuse.

Berkeley's City government needs a lot more transparency, but as-written the proposed "Sunshine Ordinance" has the potential to bring an already-too-slow CIty government to a virtual standstill.

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

Heather_W_62 — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:16:37 -0000

Yeah, if I were to start a complaint in my immediate neighborhood and hope for a 30 year resolution it's likely I'll spend the last 30 years of my life living in misery. Then I'll be dead.

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

Heather_W_62 — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:15:38 -0000

Laura, I've read over this new ordinance and agree we need an enforceable Sunshine Ord. But this one has demands that could potentially shut down City Council meetings due to the weirdo's who would do anything to further their whackadoodle agendas. I would wish for a cleaner, more concise Ordinance that was more pragmatic and realistic, not in terms of transparency, but in terms of how it is carried out. We can talk off-line about this, of course.

Re: How much is democracy worth in Berkeley?

Bruce Love — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:14:04 -0000

Ok Bruce, I'll bite. What sections/lines within the ordinance do you
think would prevent the kind of shenanigans that I'm talking about?

I understand you to be talking about 1.30.160 F in the proposed ordinance:

https://docs.google.com/file/d...

The parliamentarian is obliged to receive and announce the substance of complaints during a meeting. Complaints must be regarding specific violations of the ordinance.

You're alleging that this allows any random individual to fillibuster a meeting. Not even close. A far more common sense reading applies. If a trouble maker or two files a frivolous complaint -- it can be announced, set aside to be reviewed by the sunshine committee, and ultimately dropped. There is no fillibuster. If in some imaginary scenario there's a queue of 100 people filing complaints..... welll: In one case they are all on roughly the same point in which case they can be received and announced en masse. You can imagine Bates on the dais saying something like "OK, we have many, many complaints on issue X. We'll take these seriously. They'll be reviewed." No filibuster and the ordinance is well satisfied. If there are 100 completely ludicrous complaints with no common substance, that no judge could accept were made in good faith but were rather apparently made precisely to disrupt a meeting, then the people filling in the bogus forms with their crayons aren't using the sunshine law, they're simply disrupting a public meeting and can be removed (not that this kind of abuse is likely to happen). Again, no filibuster.

Right now, in the current situation, if a council member feels that the council is not following the rules they can put that on the record. I'm sure others have but Worthington is someone I've heard do this. He states his objection and the meeting moves on. He can't hold the floor with that (and doesn't try) but he'll establish the record for later review.

This part of the sunshine ordinance would let the public note alleged sunshine ordinance violations during the meeting, similarly, and not with any greater disruption than that. One difference is in the follow-up: the sunshine committee will later look into the matter.

Do I think that, if this is passed, some bogus complaints will be alleged? I certainly do. I think that if/when that happens it'll be a brief interruption, a complaint that goes nowhere in the end, and that if someone tries to abuse the system to block an item they'll fail (for reasons outlined above).

The hysteria and hyperbole some opponents are trying to stir up here is ridiculous.

Re: Unfunded liabilities prompt initiative, Council resolution

EBGuy — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:10:27 -0000

For some reason I feel like listening to Dionne Warwick...

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

bgal4 — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:00:59 -0000

Not true Sharkey,

allow me to illustrate.

In 2005 the city of Berkeley came to residents living near 1610 Oregon, they set up meetings encourage us to go after the Moore drug house for a second time in small claims court. The city promised two things in support of our work:
1. a parallel process of city code enforcement actions
2. the city would provide records of city actions for the legal case

Neither commitment was honored.

We remedied 1. with the grand jury complaint and 2. by filing a Freedom of Information request

We had to file the FOIA request twice before getting access to the city records, even the city provided us with only a fraction of the records.

The court proceedings were extended one day because the judge ordered city staff to come prepared to testify with city records in hand.

We need an enforceable Sunshine Ordinance.

Re: McDonald’s tries to rebrand itself

Mary — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:00:42 -0000

Big deal - they are serving oatmeal and fruit. I can eat that kind of stuff at home in a more pleasant atmosphere.

Re: Unfunded liabilities prompt initiative, Council resolution

Bishop Berkeley — Wed, 16 May 2012 16:56:52 -0000

Since Berkeleyside has finally running an article in which budget concerns are treated seriously, let's jump to Chapter 2 -- The Other Elephant In the Room.

FiatSlug speaks for many citizens with this sentiment:

"Berkeley's priorities should be: (1) Public Safety - meaning police, fire, paramedicservices."

The Other Elephant is the fact that public safety commitments (or over-commitments) ARE among the biggest causes of our unfunded liabilities. No one likes to talk about that, which means it's EXACTLY the sort of thing good journalism should explore.

If this initiative passes (I pray it does), and if citizens start taking our financial problems seriously (ditto), and if Councilmembers become honest (ditto), then we will have to talk about our irresponsible contracts. And if we do, we'll need to talk like grownups about public safety contracts, which are among the most irresponsible of them all.

It will be very, very interesting to see whether the public safety unions throw their considerable weight AGAINST passage of the FACTS initiative.

Re: How much is democracy worth in Berkeley?

The Sharkey — Wed, 16 May 2012 16:50:35 -0000

Ok Bruce, I'll bite. What sections/lines within the ordinance do you think would prevent the kind of shenanigans that I'm talking about?

Unlike certain posters I don't pretend to be a legal authority and can only offer a layman's reading of the text. If there's anything within the measure that would prevent the kinds of stalling tactics that Eric and I are talking about I'd like to know.

Can you back up what you're saying with facts, or are you just making more pronouncements you can't back up?

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

bgal4 — Wed, 16 May 2012 16:50:14 -0000

Did you move out of Berkeley following that shooting? How do you know that the brother was not involved in WSB activity?

Re: Berkeley home, crime hotbed, declared a public nuisance

The Sharkey — Wed, 16 May 2012 16:45:52 -0000

If the so-called "Sunshine Ordinance" is passed, look for that time table to change from 30 years to 40+.

http://www.berkeleyside.com/20...